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	<title>Comments on: Sunday in the park with the Halprins (while Rome burned)</title>
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	<link>http://www.artscatter.com/general/sunday-in-the-park-with-the-halprins-while-rome-burned/</link>
	<description>a Portland-centric arts and culture blog</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 01:07:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Barry Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.artscatter.com/general/sunday-in-the-park-with-the-halprins-while-rome-burned/comment-page-1/#comment-3232</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2008 17:10:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.artscatter.com/?p=483#comment-3232</guid>
		<description>OK, then, I have posted above on this thread... I really like Carolyn's memory of Pettygrove and her experience of the place, its Secret Garden quality. And I think Randy and I have reached an agreement of a sort, which really, we always have! I will risk a metaphor here, taking off from Randy's re-envisioning comment...  The Halprin set of fountains remind us of the importance of urban re-design/re-animation in other parts of the city, too. They encourage our participation, however brief, in the life of the city; more than that, they assert that our participation is the MOST IMPORTANT THING. Even more than the fountains themselves or the buildings around them. But the "soft space" of the parks is an excellent place to start the process because they are so inviting... Which may have been what attracted Randy to them in the first place?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, then, I have posted above on this thread&#8230; I really like Carolyn&#8217;s memory of Pettygrove and her experience of the place, its Secret Garden quality. And I think Randy and I have reached an agreement of a sort, which really, we always have! I will risk a metaphor here, taking off from Randy&#8217;s re-envisioning comment&#8230;  The Halprin set of fountains remind us of the importance of urban re-design/re-animation in other parts of the city, too. They encourage our participation, however brief, in the life of the city; more than that, they assert that our participation is the MOST IMPORTANT THING. Even more than the fountains themselves or the buildings around them. But the &#8220;soft space&#8221; of the parks is an excellent place to start the process because they are so inviting&#8230; Which may have been what attracted Randy to them in the first place?</p>
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		<title>By: Art Scatter &#187; The Halprin fountain dance, one week later</title>
		<link>http://www.artscatter.com/general/sunday-in-the-park-with-the-halprins-while-rome-burned/comment-page-1/#comment-3231</link>
		<dc:creator>Art Scatter &#187; The Halprin fountain dance, one week later</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2008 16:57:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.artscatter.com/?p=483#comment-3231</guid>
		<description>[...] there was the thread to the original post&#8230; Randy Gragg, one of the key organizers, responded a couple of times. Carolyn Altman, who was [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] there was the thread to the original post&#8230; Randy Gragg, one of the key organizers, responded a couple of times. Carolyn Altman, who was [...]</p>
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		<title>By: randy gragg</title>
		<link>http://www.artscatter.com/general/sunday-in-the-park-with-the-halprins-while-rome-burned/comment-page-1/#comment-3223</link>
		<dc:creator>randy gragg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2008 06:45:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.artscatter.com/?p=483#comment-3223</guid>
		<description>To briefly pick up Barry's string, the lovely mutual diffidence between buildings and the plazas I spoke of involved the ORIGINAL buildings. The stucco (actually a plasticized version of stucco) wonder you speak of was added in the '90s, complete with the car jail that faces Lovejoy. I fought it in an article for the O, but to no avail. (It was before I knew how to be more effective with the ol' newspaper column). 

What I would suggest is walking through the plazas and IMAGINING what those old empty Modernist buildings might be filled with that would animate these spaces. The transparencies, proportions, elevations, etc are really quite lovely. For instance, wouldn't it be amazing to fill them with Jordan Schnitzer's print collection? I simply feel there has been an absence of imagination -- indeed, absence of any effort at all -- to reinvision them. But woe is the space that does not conform to stock pro formae!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To briefly pick up Barry&#8217;s string, the lovely mutual diffidence between buildings and the plazas I spoke of involved the ORIGINAL buildings. The stucco (actually a plasticized version of stucco) wonder you speak of was added in the &#8217;90s, complete with the car jail that faces Lovejoy. I fought it in an article for the O, but to no avail. (It was before I knew how to be more effective with the ol&#8217; newspaper column). </p>
<p>What I would suggest is walking through the plazas and IMAGINING what those old empty Modernist buildings might be filled with that would animate these spaces. The transparencies, proportions, elevations, etc are really quite lovely. For instance, wouldn&#8217;t it be amazing to fill them with Jordan Schnitzer&#8217;s print collection? I simply feel there has been an absence of imagination &#8212; indeed, absence of any effort at all &#8212; to reinvision them. But woe is the space that does not conform to stock pro formae!</p>
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		<title>By: Carolyn Altman</title>
		<link>http://www.artscatter.com/general/sunday-in-the-park-with-the-halprins-while-rome-burned/comment-page-1/#comment-3218</link>
		<dc:creator>Carolyn Altman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2008 17:48:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.artscatter.com/?p=483#comment-3218</guid>
		<description>Oh, the old days and the future flowing  simultaneously!  It's good to see y'all (that's what we say here in Georgia) swinging away so articulately.  Wish I could have seen the invention, beauty and fluidity of all those talented performers.      I fondly remember swimming in the Pettygrove fountain after late night rehearsals at Shattuck Hall, and leading bands of small children, including my son who is now 6'2'', from one fountain to another during afternoons of splashing.  Many cities have fountains such the one at the end of Salmon Street (Atlanta and Augusta come to mind), but none that I've visited let you flow through space in the way the configuration does in this district.  They are more tourist targets than places people in the know could go for some decent hanging out.  We often saw skateboarders rolling from one end to the other.  Oh, the dance. The buildings are diffident, maybe.  Butt ugly, some, and I do remember some of that bars-on-the windows feeling Barry describes.  But I always the green and quiet in the district interesting in relation to the rest of the city, and the lack of people shopping made us feel like adventurers in secret territory- we were relating to the space the buildings created more than the buildings themselves.  The space was less the Pioneer Square living room megagathering and more about intimate tucked away hollows - an urban Secret Garden.    There were people there -  real people busy working and living quiet lives.  It's nice to have different textures and energies in a city, something different from ground floor commerce - florists and bank machines, as someone said.   I mean, how much shopping can we do?  I'm with Barry:  more performance!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, the old days and the future flowing  simultaneously!  It&#8217;s good to see y&#8217;all (that&#8217;s what we say here in Georgia) swinging away so articulately.  Wish I could have seen the invention, beauty and fluidity of all those talented performers.      I fondly remember swimming in the Pettygrove fountain after late night rehearsals at Shattuck Hall, and leading bands of small children, including my son who is now 6&#8242;2&#8221;, from one fountain to another during afternoons of splashing.  Many cities have fountains such the one at the end of Salmon Street (Atlanta and Augusta come to mind), but none that I&#8217;ve visited let you flow through space in the way the configuration does in this district.  They are more tourist targets than places people in the know could go for some decent hanging out.  We often saw skateboarders rolling from one end to the other.  Oh, the dance. The buildings are diffident, maybe.  Butt ugly, some, and I do remember some of that bars-on-the windows feeling Barry describes.  But I always the green and quiet in the district interesting in relation to the rest of the city, and the lack of people shopping made us feel like adventurers in secret territory- we were relating to the space the buildings created more than the buildings themselves.  The space was less the Pioneer Square living room megagathering and more about intimate tucked away hollows - an urban Secret Garden.    There were people there -  real people busy working and living quiet lives.  It&#8217;s nice to have different textures and energies in a city, something different from ground floor commerce - florists and bank machines, as someone said.   I mean, how much shopping can we do?  I&#8217;m with Barry:  more performance!</p>
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		<title>By: daily observations &#187; third angle and tba - &#8216;brilliant achievement&#8217;</title>
		<link>http://www.artscatter.com/general/sunday-in-the-park-with-the-halprins-while-rome-burned/comment-page-1/#comment-3151</link>
		<dc:creator>daily observations &#187; third angle and tba - &#8216;brilliant achievement&#8217;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 00:03:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.artscatter.com/?p=483#comment-3151</guid>
		<description>[...] and this from Barry Johnson&#8217;s artscatter blog.   SHARETHIS.addEntry({ title: "third angle and tba - &#8216;brilliant achievement&#8217;", [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and this from Barry Johnson&#8217;s artscatter blog.   SHARETHIS.addEntry({ title: &#8220;third angle and tba - &#8216;brilliant achievement&#8217;&#8221;, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Barry Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.artscatter.com/general/sunday-in-the-park-with-the-halprins-while-rome-burned/comment-page-1/#comment-3150</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 23:53:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.artscatter.com/?p=483#comment-3150</guid>
		<description>Just for the record, Randy and I worked together in the arts department for most of his 17 years or so at The Oregonian; the last half-dozen I served as his editor. So, Kristi may be referring to our oh-so-occasional moments of disagreement!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just for the record, Randy and I worked together in the arts department for most of his 17 years or so at The Oregonian; the last half-dozen I served as his editor. So, Kristi may be referring to our oh-so-occasional moments of disagreement!</p>
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		<title>By: Kristi!</title>
		<link>http://www.artscatter.com/general/sunday-in-the-park-with-the-halprins-while-rome-burned/comment-page-1/#comment-3149</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristi!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 22:49:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.artscatter.com/?p=483#comment-3149</guid>
		<description>Sorry, I'm all choked up. Witnessing you two sparring is just like old times! Brings a tear to the eye.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I&#8217;m all choked up. Witnessing you two sparring is just like old times! Brings a tear to the eye.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://www.artscatter.com/general/sunday-in-the-park-with-the-halprins-while-rome-burned/comment-page-1/#comment-3111</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:36:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.artscatter.com/?p=483#comment-3111</guid>
		<description>It WAS quite pleasant sitting in virtual solitude, surrounded by the dancers and musicians as they warmed up. And then watching the crowd filter into Pettygrove, a few at first and then the hundreds, with the "mime monitors" in their white uniforms trying to keep them out of the performing spaces using as few words as possible. Which gets at the heart of A. and L. Halprin's thinking about the line between performance and audience, perhaps?

OK. "Atrocious." I would defend it with one image: The back of the pedestrian stucco condo unit (I suppose they are condos and I use "pedestrian" instead of some firmer and more negative adjective just because I'm making a case for "atrocious" and don't want to defend something like "butt-ugly") that faces the upper reaches of Lovejoy, quite close to the fountain, with the first couple of floors of its parking garage, which would be bad enough, except they reach a whole new level of awful by virtue of their metal bars over the windows. So you sit in Lovejoy Park and have the experience of "prison." Nothing else is quite that bad, though I'd argue that "diffidence" isn't quite it. The building owners/designers totally disregarded the fountains.

I plead not guilty to the sin of New Urbanism (I've criticized Leon Krier on the blog before, for example, specifically the post after your interview with Fregonese), though the movement has done one important thing: encouraged human scale. In the case of South Auditorium, I would have been just fine with 6 towers arranged just so in the superblocks around the fountains.  That WOULD have been diffident, each giving the other space, and it might have been possible to encourage more interaction with the parks from the rest of the city. Surrounding them with townhouses, I agree, creates exactly the same problem that we have now -- limited access/visibility. So I suppose I'm coming down on the side of the SOM/Le Corbusier vision after all, minus the all clutter. In your presentation, you (or maybe Professor Abbott) projected a photograph of the original plan, and though I have serious reservations about it ("sterile"), as just one piece in the multifarious city, it would have been interesting and the fountains/parks/plazas would have had room to breathe and invite more performance.

But, before we get lost in argument, let me get a little more personal: your Halprin journey has been an incredibly interesting one to watch for me, from your first stories int he paper to this event, and it's opened my eyes to so many facets of Portland history, American culture, urban and landscape design, and much more. So any differences of interpretation we may have for me are cushioned by gratitude for the ride.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It WAS quite pleasant sitting in virtual solitude, surrounded by the dancers and musicians as they warmed up. And then watching the crowd filter into Pettygrove, a few at first and then the hundreds, with the &#8220;mime monitors&#8221; in their white uniforms trying to keep them out of the performing spaces using as few words as possible. Which gets at the heart of A. and L. Halprin&#8217;s thinking about the line between performance and audience, perhaps?</p>
<p>OK. &#8220;Atrocious.&#8221; I would defend it with one image: The back of the pedestrian stucco condo unit (I suppose they are condos and I use &#8220;pedestrian&#8221; instead of some firmer and more negative adjective just because I&#8217;m making a case for &#8220;atrocious&#8221; and don&#8217;t want to defend something like &#8220;butt-ugly&#8221;) that faces the upper reaches of Lovejoy, quite close to the fountain, with the first couple of floors of its parking garage, which would be bad enough, except they reach a whole new level of awful by virtue of their metal bars over the windows. So you sit in Lovejoy Park and have the experience of &#8220;prison.&#8221; Nothing else is quite that bad, though I&#8217;d argue that &#8220;diffidence&#8221; isn&#8217;t quite it. The building owners/designers totally disregarded the fountains.</p>
<p>I plead not guilty to the sin of New Urbanism (I&#8217;ve criticized Leon Krier on the blog before, for example, specifically the post after your interview with Fregonese), though the movement has done one important thing: encouraged human scale. In the case of South Auditorium, I would have been just fine with 6 towers arranged just so in the superblocks around the fountains.  That WOULD have been diffident, each giving the other space, and it might have been possible to encourage more interaction with the parks from the rest of the city. Surrounding them with townhouses, I agree, creates exactly the same problem that we have now &#8212; limited access/visibility. So I suppose I&#8217;m coming down on the side of the SOM/Le Corbusier vision after all, minus the all clutter. In your presentation, you (or maybe Professor Abbott) projected a photograph of the original plan, and though I have serious reservations about it (&#8221;sterile&#8221;), as just one piece in the multifarious city, it would have been interesting and the fountains/parks/plazas would have had room to breathe and invite more performance.</p>
<p>But, before we get lost in argument, let me get a little more personal: your Halprin journey has been an incredibly interesting one to watch for me, from your first stories int he paper to this event, and it&#8217;s opened my eyes to so many facets of Portland history, American culture, urban and landscape design, and much more. So any differences of interpretation we may have for me are cushioned by gratitude for the ride.</p>
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		<title>By: randy gragg</title>
		<link>http://www.artscatter.com/general/sunday-in-the-park-with-the-halprins-while-rome-burned/comment-page-1/#comment-3108</link>
		<dc:creator>randy gragg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 01:10:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.artscatter.com/?p=483#comment-3108</guid>
		<description>We LOVE the critic who curates his own personal performance. You could have started at The Source Fountain and floated downstream into the performers' efforts to swim upstream and metaphorically to the original inspiration of dance/architecture in the Halprin's personal experience. But that would be my "perfect critic"!

I actually disagree that the spaces are "atrocious." Too many people today want to overlay New Urbanism fashions of florists and bank machines on every corner. I find the landscape and buildings' mutual diffidence toward one another to be one of the more charming aspects of the district. The trick would be finding a use or a delicate intervention to animate them with a few more people. But the recent and current owners so far have shown little creativity. I have no idea what kinds of returns they're seeking, but imagine if their proformae could be served by small creative firms or studio spaces not reliant on traffic. Before bulldozing and surrounding the plazas in townhouses, why not at least TRY to imagine how they could remain pleasant diversions rather than somebody's front yards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We LOVE the critic who curates his own personal performance. You could have started at The Source Fountain and floated downstream into the performers&#8217; efforts to swim upstream and metaphorically to the original inspiration of dance/architecture in the Halprin&#8217;s personal experience. But that would be my &#8220;perfect critic&#8221;!</p>
<p>I actually disagree that the spaces are &#8220;atrocious.&#8221; Too many people today want to overlay New Urbanism fashions of florists and bank machines on every corner. I find the landscape and buildings&#8217; mutual diffidence toward one another to be one of the more charming aspects of the district. The trick would be finding a use or a delicate intervention to animate them with a few more people. But the recent and current owners so far have shown little creativity. I have no idea what kinds of returns they&#8217;re seeking, but imagine if their proformae could be served by small creative firms or studio spaces not reliant on traffic. Before bulldozing and surrounding the plazas in townhouses, why not at least TRY to imagine how they could remain pleasant diversions rather than somebody&#8217;s front yards.</p>
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		<title>By: Martha Ullman West</title>
		<link>http://www.artscatter.com/general/sunday-in-the-park-with-the-halprins-while-rome-burned/comment-page-1/#comment-3100</link>
		<dc:creator>Martha Ullman West</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 18:30:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.artscatter.com/?p=483#comment-3100</guid>
		<description>I'm sorry Barry, very, that you missed most of the Keller fountain opener, which had an elegance and playfulness, as well as a thoughtfulness behind it, that I found lacking in the other three.  Mathern well understands that geometry is poetry, which applies not only to her choreography but to the fountain itself.  I really loved it, and I think Anna Halprin would have absolutely detested it--it had the kind of theatricality she was thoroughly against, including very thoughtful costuming. But the costuming was a linking theme of the four performances and one of the things that made it work as an integrated concert, particularly the use of color. Victim of nostalgia?  Go for it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry Barry, very, that you missed most of the Keller fountain opener, which had an elegance and playfulness, as well as a thoughtfulness behind it, that I found lacking in the other three.  Mathern well understands that geometry is poetry, which applies not only to her choreography but to the fountain itself.  I really loved it, and I think Anna Halprin would have absolutely detested it&#8211;it had the kind of theatricality she was thoroughly against, including very thoughtful costuming. But the costuming was a linking theme of the four performances and one of the things that made it work as an integrated concert, particularly the use of color. Victim of nostalgia?  Go for it!</p>
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